Elron
Fleet Admiral
[Retired]
?There are no facts, only interpretations? (Nietzsche)
Registered: May 31, 2003 12:23:57 GMT
Posts: 3,080
|
Post by Elron on Jan 20, 2007 2:07:03 GMT
I've never felt that the Treaty of Algeron was the only thing holding the Federation back. That treaty was ratified many decades ago (nearly a century ago in our timeframe) and the Federation has gone through various periods of hostility/cooperation with the RSE since then.
I always felt that there was an ethical dimension to it that meant Starfleet didn't want to cloak its ships. It goes against the Federation's general policy of peace, honesty and openness. Gene Roddenberry himself also once said that the Federation didn't go "sneaking about" and wouldn't stoop to using such a device.
While it makes sense on certain tactical ships and small fighters, such as the Defiant, it seems bizarre to include a cloaking device on a large flagship such as this. The flagship is generally meant to serve as a symbol of its fleet, and not intended for covert military incursions.
|
|
Jamey Gaz
Commander 1C
Species: Joined Trill
Registered: Feb 17, 2005 8:15:35 GMT
Posts: 598
|
Post by Jamey Gaz on Jan 20, 2007 6:25:43 GMT
I always felt that there was an ethical dimension to it that meant Starfleet didn't want to cloak its ships. It goes against the Federation's general policy of peace, honesty and openness. Gene Roddenberry himself also once said that the Federation didn't go "sneaking about" and wouldn't stoop to using such a device.
While it makes sense on certain tactical ships and small fighters, such as the Defiant, it seems bizarre to include a cloaking device on a large flagship such as this. The flagship is generally meant to serve as a symbol of its fleet, and not intended for covert military incursions. Yes ... OK ... I will agree with you on both those points. However, I do feel at times it would be a very good thing to be able to hide a flag ship - with out having to go into some type of polar orbit or hide in an asteroid belt etc. Sometimes it simply pays to not be seen. ... just my two cents worth ... in other words just for conversation's sake.
|
|
isis
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by isis on Jan 20, 2007 8:51:17 GMT
but what if people were trying to steal it?
|
|
cptjeff
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by cptjeff on Jan 21, 2007 6:01:31 GMT
ME+ Phaser rifle+ problem solved....
seriously, the fedaration would have the working specs and would be able to detect it somehow. There are ways, they're just not easy.
It would, however, make a great story.
|
|
jared
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by jared on Jan 21, 2007 13:39:10 GMT
they don't require a new shuttle, and the shuttles are developed independently of the ships. (the famous exception being the Delta Flayer) For example, the Defiant's shuttle was added after the ship- it didn't come first. The Chaffee was a later addition. It was designed as a shuttle with the same mission profile that the defiant might use- they would be on other ships as well. And We should work into a story that the treaty was changed and the federation can have cloaks now.... And the Federation has Tri-Coblalt torpedoes too- but they're not common and are not often equipped. no need to use romulan tech when the federation can do it themselves. True that most shuttles are probably independent designs (although I'm not sure this was ever spoken of on screen). But it's been a problem identified in ex-astris that the Voyager shuttles make no sense as a practical design and the Defiant special shuttles are likewise pointless. Thus the only two IC explanations are a)unusual ship designs are given special shuttles for testing purposes b)Starfleet designers are stupid and wasteful I'd rather believe the first.
|
|
cptjeff
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by cptjeff on Jan 23, 2007 5:41:42 GMT
there's another: specialized shuttles are given to specialized ships.
Shuttles are by nature mass production type deals. probably run off assembly lines. As for design practicality, we don't know all about them, and who knows how well suited they are or aren't? A large ship will probably carry many different types of shuttles (look at the Enterprises) While a smaller specialized ship will carry only shuttle types that fit with the ship. a scout ship like the intrepid will get fitted with fast type 9s (why do I know that? That's too detailed...) and a few other general classes. Parts in reserve assure a varied supply.
Our ship will have a varied compliment like a Sov or Galaxy, aka just about anything the Federation Makes.
|
|
raleva
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by raleva on Jan 23, 2007 13:22:58 GMT
I came across something interesting while studying a state of the art, quick response ship that has recently been commissioned for the US Navy. They are a bit ... odd ... but alot of what the ship has going for it is unique. The ship itself is like a skeleton with a large cargo hold with several different mission modules. Now, based on their mission they are supposed to have a different module with different modifications for their ship. What they do is ... they stay at sea for long periods of time and are given their orders with only hours to install the modifications. However, they are the most adaptable ship in the fleet capable of landing choppers, certain jets, taking combat far along major rivers, and to coastal areas. They are also designed to run quieter than any other ship of their size ...
The main idea this ship gave me for the flagship is the idea behind the mission modules. This means that a ship is literally prepared for anything ... no matter what the mission, they have specialized equipment already onboard. I thought that might be a unique touch ... and it would give a CO an incredible number of options and it would also give the CEO a lot more to do simwise.
|
|
jared
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by jared on Jan 24, 2007 18:06:23 GMT
there's another: specialized shuttles are given to specialized ships. Shuttles are by nature mass production type deals. probably run off assembly lines. As for design practicality, we don't know all about them, and who knows how well suited they are or aren't? A large ship will probably carry many different types of shuttles (look at the Enterprises) While a smaller specialized ship will carry only shuttle types that fit with the ship. a scout ship like the intrepid will get fitted with fast type 9s (why do I know that? That's too detailed...) and a few other general classes. Parts in reserve assure a varied supply. Our ship will have a varied compliment like a Sov or Galaxy, aka just about anything the Federation Makes. The first line is essentially my point. The only difference is why the shuttles are there. Of course in space shape does not fit with speed, so the inefficient spatial design of the type 9 (compare to the Enterprise D's bulky but generally efficient shuttles) has to be explained another way. The decononised episode Threshold supplied the only good reason why; they used the shuttle shaped most like Voyager to test the drive. The fact the episode WAS subtly decanonised by later scripting means that it's not an official explanation, but it is a good one.
|
|
Deleted
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2007 18:31:27 GMT
I came across something interesting while studying a state of the art, quick response ship that has recently been commissioned for the US Navy. They are a bit ... odd ... but alot of what the ship has going for it is unique. The ship itself is like a skeleton with a large cargo hold with several different mission modules. Now, based on their mission they are supposed to have a different module with different modifications for their ship. What they do is ... they stay at sea for long periods of time and are given their orders with only hours to install the modifications. However, they are the most adaptable ship in the fleet capable of landing choppers, certain jets, taking combat far along major rivers, and to coastal areas. They are also designed to run quieter than any other ship of their size ... The main idea this ship gave me for the flagship is the idea behind the mission modules. This means that a ship is literally prepared for anything ... no matter what the mission, they have specialized equipment already onboard. I thought that might be a unique touch ... and it would give a CO an incredible number of options and it would also give the CEO a lot more to do simwise. That's not a bad idea. However, wouldn't it take a while to change the modules, etc? Unless it was designed kinda like the Nebula Class which featured a large upper equipment module, usually used for sensors, that could be customised for different mission profiles. At the end of the day, the idea has merit.... I like it!
|
|
jared
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by jared on Jan 24, 2007 20:35:09 GMT
Whilst the pod design is nothing new (Nebula, Thunderbird 2), the obvious limitation is distance. In order for the system to work, the pod has to be available instantly to the ship. At the distances and times in Trek galactic navigation, the ship would take some time to return to (a) base, repod and leave for the mission space. Also, plot convenience tends to see any given ship being able to manufacture what it needs on the spot or somewhere nearby. Who wants to spend time fetching the equipment when they could go straight to mission? Even in the series Picard never said 'Sorry, we can't do that. Biscuit?' IC the need is replaced with the replicators. They can make enough parts to build an entire <tech> on the way. So good idea for naval and short range vessels. Bad idea for starships.
|
|
Deleted
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2007 21:02:57 GMT
Who said anything about having to go to a base to pick anything up? If you read the original post, it would be based on that, so there would be no need to go anywhere.
I doubt it would be a 'pod' like the Nebula, but all the module parts and stuff would already be on board.
And neither I nor Raleva never said anything about the idea being new.
|
|
Elron
Fleet Admiral
[Retired]
?There are no facts, only interpretations? (Nietzsche)
Registered: May 31, 2003 12:23:57 GMT
Posts: 3,080
|
Post by Elron on Jan 24, 2007 21:33:25 GMT
Umm... if all the equipment is already on the ship, then how is it any different from current ships? Are you just saying that it should carry more specialist equipment? All that requires is more storage space, so it's not exactly anything innovative. I'm not quite sure what the point is here. I'd thought you meant something Thunderbird 2-esque as well.
Having re-read the original post, I see what you mean now. I'm fairly sure Federation starships are designed to be equipped for a vast range of mission types without the need to go swapping modules or overhauling the ship. All features should be ready to use in an instant.
|
|
Deleted
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2007 21:40:40 GMT
It's just an idea....thats what this place is for, right?
|
|
Elron
Fleet Admiral
[Retired]
?There are no facts, only interpretations? (Nietzsche)
Registered: May 31, 2003 12:23:57 GMT
Posts: 3,080
|
Post by Elron on Jan 24, 2007 21:42:29 GMT
Yeah, sorry if I'm coming across as harsh or anything. I don't wanna beliitle anyone's contributions. It's been a tiring day...
|
|
Deleted
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2007 21:44:02 GMT
Lol, thats ok...it wasnt you it was aimed at! hehe.
Tiring day?.....go get some sleep then! ;D
|
|
narsil
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by narsil on Jan 27, 2007 7:06:48 GMT
That treaty only says the federation cant DEVELOPE cloaking tech it says nothing about using it...perhaps the ship could be built in co-operation with the RSE on the condition that a cloak is loaned to the federation. I for one am very interested in the through cloak firing abilities of the Scimitar. perhaps we could incorperate something similar hear.... power requirements though...eh i shudder to think.
|
|
isis
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by isis on Jan 27, 2007 10:53:59 GMT
i think the simitars cloak is selective decloaking in a small area
|
|
narsil
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by narsil on Jan 27, 2007 19:43:50 GMT
If so the enterprise would be able to detect the Scimitar every time they fire if that is indeed true then they might as well be decloaked also the fact of the matter is that how the cloak works is irrelevant to this conversation...simply that it works is all we need to know for now
anyways it was just a suggestion
|
|
isis
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by isis on Jan 27, 2007 20:34:04 GMT
One of my friends said this about selective cloaks one while testing a mod for ST: Bridge Commander.
so it would be still cloaked.
or it uses similar power requirerments to the klingon bird of prey in the last NCC-1701 film coz' it would have to with the radiation source it uses/used.
|
|
narsil
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by narsil on Jan 27, 2007 20:46:43 GMT
Interesting...i'll have to look farther into this...thank you for your input Lieutenant
|
|
isis
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by isis on Jan 27, 2007 21:11:50 GMT
ill try to find some screenyies if that helps
|
|
narsil
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by narsil on Jan 27, 2007 23:40:10 GMT
Yes Please
|
|
jared
Guest
Registered: Apr 24, 2024 11:35:02 GMT
|
Post by jared on Jan 29, 2007 22:13:08 GMT
The Bird of Prey in ST:6 had in cloak firing, despite the status of the film itself. However, it seems to make things too easy: Go into cloak Fire torpedoes (note they couldn't do phasers though) Enemy dies On with simming...well, not so much.
Also, if anyone found out about this they would likely execute the entire crew and pretend they never found the ship, which would also make simming hard.
Basically, it seems a good idea for a baddie ship to have because of the challenge it represents but risks removing any sort of challenge for the crew. Possibly anyone interested in designing such a ship should do so for the Romulans so that their ship can be the one to find it a blow it up?
|
|