ajohnson
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Post by ajohnson on Jan 9, 2007 23:04:06 GMT
During this topic we will need to address the following issues.
1) What type of weapons will the ship have?
1a) Phasers - Probably not a large point of discussion. 2a) Torpedoes - Photon/Quantum/Transphasic/Chroniton etc.
2) Any business relating to sheilds.
3) Ablative Armour
4) Will the ship have a cloak or not. This will no doubt involve discussion about the current status of the Treaty of Algeron. We also need to think about the possibility of phase cloak.
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Jamey Gaz
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Post by Jamey Gaz on Jan 10, 2007 0:39:42 GMT
1) What type of weapons will the ship have 1a) Phasers - Probably not a large point of discussion. 2a) Torpedoes - Photon/Quantum/Transphasic/Chroniton etc.? Phasers - yes please ... lol ... not really "up" on that treknology Torpedoes - Photon - I would say mostly for demolition weapons Quantum - as the default torpedo Transphasic - I have asked this question before but got very little response ... however I would say that this long after VOY that S47 would have a handle on this torpedo ... so yes in limited quantity on ships --- I would say that Hell-fire would be the next choice after Quantum Chroniton - I would say no ... simply b/c (in cannon anyway) it was in a different time line that this torpedo was "known" about ... and even if the current time line knows about this ... I would say that Star Fleet would NOT use this because of its use of Temporal incursion ... messin' with the timeline ... a big no no.
2) Any business relating to shields. I would say that this new ship should be able to have all shields that are currently used
3) Ablative Armour yes
4) Will the ship have a cloak or not. This will no doubt involve discussion about the current status of the Treaty of Algeron. We also need to think about the possibility of phase cloak.
I think it is time to move past the Treaty of Algeron and have cloak ... at least the ability in war time
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Michael Aarons
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Post by Michael Aarons on Jan 10, 2007 0:55:15 GMT
Regarding the cloak. I think that it would be wrong that Starfleet go against a treaty established by the Federation. The Federation's upholding of the treaty is a sign to the moral integrity that it stands for. Furthermore regarding phase cloaks. Those should be out of the question because in the canon they were always talked about as theoretical. In fact the best the Klingons and Remans could ever come up with were ones that didn't interfere with the ability to use weapons (and shields in Shinzon's case). Although the Pegasus' phase cloak worked it was however a means to an end story wise and even Picard fessed up to the Romulans on that. Let's also not forget that the reason the treaty exists is because of an accident trying to achieve the technology. Finally if someone has a cloak they 1) run the risk of becoming an uber-ship. 2) deny the story telling of overcoming a handicap in the face of a cloak-capable enemy (or would you prefer to see a game of Marco-Polo where everybody is has their eyes closed?).
Regarding shields. I do think they should be independent instead of one shield bubble that covers the whole ship. That way if aft shields go down the bow is still covered and so on. Whether they should be regenerative is a different story. As for ablative armour, I think something small or intended for strike manuevers should have them especially when you consider the quantity needed for a large ship or one that can defend itself without. It just seems like overkill.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2007 20:39:36 GMT
the klingons use it, so why not starfleet
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2007 20:45:27 GMT
Klingons aren't part of the Federation.
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Elron
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Post by Elron on Jan 10, 2007 21:54:45 GMT
I'd think the Klingons pour most of their resources into weaponry and defensive systems, unlike the Federation, which has different priorities. Do we actually know that the Klingons completely plate their large flagships with ablative armour though?
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Jamey Gaz
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Post by Jamey Gaz on Jan 10, 2007 22:18:41 GMT
I don't know if they plate the whole ship or not ... but you would think they would plate around the important systems ... at the very least.
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Michael Aarons
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Post by Michael Aarons on Jan 10, 2007 22:22:05 GMT
Well I'm not sure about the Sovereign's having armor but I meant something along the lines of a smaller ship like the Defiant versus a more massive ship like a Galaxy class. In any case also consider if this ship will carry families or not.
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jared
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Post by jared on Jan 10, 2007 23:01:33 GMT
Weapons and defenses: Both would be a good idea.
Torpedoes; I'm not sure what chronoton torpedoes are or how they are meant to work, but since chronotons are supposed to be part of time travel it doesn't seem a viable weapon or a safe one. Transphasic also seems unlikely to be present in large quantities due to expense. How about simply Quantum mark 2. Increasing the yeild of weapons is the usual, cheapest and easiest progress, not changing the entire operating principle and overly complicating matters.
Ablative armour only if it is small. It wouldn't be present on large ships which rely on their size for defence and wouldn't have all the systems on the surface like all the Voyager ships appeared to. Thus it would be impossible to target individual systems on anything large and puncturing the hull would not cause enough damage in one volley to shut the whole thing down.
A possible mix would be to use Battlestar style shielded armour where the shields are part of the armour of the ship. That would make beaming through shields possible via specialist extendable antennae, readings on one's shields would be harder to gather and they wouldn't burn off like the current Federation ones do.
No cloak, especially on a large ship. It would be too expensive power wise and seeing through cloaks is easy enough as long as one is willing to bother fitting their ship with the right scanner (Even sonar would pick up a cloaked ship, although not fast enough if it was moving). The surprise with cloak was when it wasn't seen before or when ships appeared the first time in an engagement. It is now both too well known and counterable to be of much worth. Did large Klingon ships even bother with it?
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evoran
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Post by evoran on Jan 12, 2007 1:19:18 GMT
That's not for this topic.
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cptjeff
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Post by cptjeff on Jan 16, 2007 0:23:52 GMT
A cloak could not be detected- and sound can't travel in space, so sonar wouldn't work. The Treaty would probably have been modified by this point as well, considering the closer relationship between the federation and the Romulans, So I would think that we would have no legal issues.
As for weapons and defense? good idea. Phaser strips, (call 'em type 15, the sov has type 12, the Galaxy 10)
Torpedoes should be Photon and Quantum, on paper we can upgrade them from previous specs but they're basically the same idea.
Ablative Armour is a good idea as well, The defiant has it, the Sov has it, so we should have it. no reason to make a new ship with less advanced tech then older ones.
and double redundant coverage on all critical ship areas with the phasers. At least. the Sov didn't originally have that, but we should.
And realistically placed torpedo launchers... Another nemesis peeve....
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Michael Aarons
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Post by Michael Aarons on Jan 16, 2007 0:35:32 GMT
That's not for this topic. Yes! That most certainly is because if the ship will carry civilians on it like the Enterprise D, then having ablative armor would be a more serious consideration so as to make the ship that much more safer for the personel on board. Remember that the first thing on anyone's mind is will something be safe enough for those using it? That's what I was getting at when I brought it up.
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Elron
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Post by Elron on Jan 16, 2007 14:00:52 GMT
Actually, if it carries civilians it's surely less likely to have ablative armour since it's less likely to be in dangerous situations in the first place. Starfleet doesn't consider its officers' lives more expendable than civilian ones, but it does consider them better trained to handle themselves in combat.
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cptjeff
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Post by cptjeff on Jan 17, 2007 20:27:19 GMT
Good Point. I also affects design and size- if you're not going to the front lines as much, you have less need for maneuverability. You also would probably have a better equipped suacer for escape then you would otherwise.
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Elron
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Post by Elron on Jan 18, 2007 11:07:41 GMT
Hence the big difference between the Galaxy and Intrepid/Akira classes.
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jared
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Post by jared on Jan 19, 2007 19:17:31 GMT
A cloak could not be detected- and sound can't travel in space, so sonar wouldn't work. The Treaty would probably have been modified by this point as well, considering the closer relationship between the federation and the Romulans, So I would think that we would have no legal issues. As for weapons and defense? good idea. Phaser strips, (call 'em type 15, the sov has type 12, the Galaxy 10) Torpedoes should be Photon and Quantum, on paper we can upgrade them from previous specs but they're basically the same idea. Ablative Armour is a good idea as well, The defiant has it, the Sov has it, so we should have it. no reason to make a new ship with less advanced tech then older ones. and double redundant coverage on all critical ship areas with the phasers. At least. the Sov didn't originally have that, but we should. And realistically placed torpedo launchers... Another nemesis peeve.... I meant radar, not sonar. Comes from watching something about dolphins at the same time. The tachyon system of detecting cloak is likely based on the same principle but with a different medium. What is the difference between phaser types? If it's just energy outage then why not come up with a new jump in technology to a turbo phaser? Of course, since Federation tech moves on, so would the baddies so no major advantage would be gained for long.
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Magellan Lin
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Post by Magellan Lin on Jan 19, 2007 21:22:44 GMT
In regards to the cloak issue Alex asked me the other day about how cloaks have been handled in Star Trek and more particularly S47 to date. I responded with:
"As to cloak well thats tricky... technically nothing in canon nor non-canon star trek lore has turned aside the Treaty of Algeron prohibiting the Federation from using cloaks however there are precedents...
1) The USS Defiant obviously but cloak was only given for purposes of the Dominion Threat although in subsequent DS9 books they have been allowed to retain the cloak.
2) The USS Victory-B on S47 was an incursion class vessel. Something Locutis picked from the Star Trek Away team PC game - this didnt exactly have a cloak but a holo-mask allowing it to look like other ships... I didnt like this idea so when I took command I made her a standard Defiant Class (declaring that the Holo cloak had failed which it did nearly every mission we used it the enemy saw through it eventually LOL).
3) The USS Vesuvius-A was designed with both Klingon and Romulan influence and has a cloak - poss even a phased cloak... now I was discussing this with Sonak the other day and she could nt come up with a reason as to why the Rommies would take part and allow this, Nick should know though.
4) As to use of the cloak on the flagship project... that would need some good reasoning - why would the Romulans rescind the Treaty for our flagship... why would it be in their interest? "
What ever you decide it needs to play convincingly not only in the Star Trek Universe and as importantly in the S47 universe - remember we are in uncharted territory here, S47 is a significant period after that last canon Star Trek event.
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cptjeff
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Post by cptjeff on Jan 20, 2007 5:40:08 GMT
perhaps the Romulan empire has agreed to permit a cloak on a federation vessel if they are provided the sensor codes so they can detect it. I dunno, I would have thought that since nemisis the romualn empire and Federation had closer relationships. perhaps work something into a mission? (Elron, that would probably be your call)
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Magellan Lin
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Post by Magellan Lin on Jan 20, 2007 11:20:30 GMT
That could work but so far interactions with the Romulans in Section 47 havent been particularly friendly - www.s47.org/wiki2/index.php/Romulan_Star_EmpireI m not saying it shouldnt have a cloak technogically - I m perhaps looking at it more in the context to Star Trek history and more importantly story telling - would having a cloak make story telling easier or harder? Does it make things a little too simple or open up new avenues of storys?
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cptjeff
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Post by cptjeff on Jan 21, 2007 5:59:12 GMT
Too easy? what if you're on an undercover mission and it fails in the middle?
more storylines? What about the sneak up on a ship, oh, we'll jsut cloak...
It cuts both ways, I suppose, and would depend on the captain and the simmers. you would have to be carful, yes, but I think it could be a great simming tool.
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Elron
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Post by Elron on Jan 21, 2007 13:19:40 GMT
The Black Tulip's had her share of confrontations with the Romulans too. We once performed a covert incursion into Romulan space after Starfleet discovered the Romulans were building some kind of super-dreadnought and Adm Clark sent us in to investigate (or something like that anyway, I don't remember the details but I'm sure it was more believable than that, lol.... I wonder if we still have a record of that mission anywhere....)
I have to agree that devising it in such a way that the Federation and RSE knew how to detect it would certainly make it more believable. You could even commission the ship without a cloak to begin with, and in the first mission she could be involved in something which is of great service to the RSE (saves it from another assassination attempt or something?) and this prompts the Romulans to grant the ship special dispensation. Just a springboard for ideas...
I also think that the cloak could allow some new and interesting storylines. I would just worry that it might be a bit like Troi's empathic ability: useful for some stories, but you have to keep thinking of ways of getting rid of it for others. A cloak that repeatedly fails isn't of much use to anyone, including the Romulans. I agree it would depend on the captain and crew though.
Whatever we decide in the end, Admiral Magellan is right that it will need to be fully explained to our satisfaction (and as you've probably gathered that's not as easy as it sounds, lol )
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cptjeff
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Post by cptjeff on Jan 23, 2007 5:28:33 GMT
Yeah, explaining it will be really difficult, but it would be great fun to sim with.... used right of course.
Ahem. Back to phasers. a question was asked about phaser types, what' the difference. not just power, but focusing, targeting sensitivity, array adjustment and firing speed, and many more. It basically means better all around.
Oh, and the tachyon system requires a net of ships, and that's a real pain. Most of the time, a cloaked ship will get through because there simply aren't enough ships to continually watch for them. If you find one that way, it's luck.
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jared
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Post by jared on Jan 24, 2007 18:11:08 GMT
Either way, bouncing rays off the cloaked ship would work. Noone's ever said that x-rays are affected by cloak. They are deflected by solid objects and the ship is still there, it is only distorting the visible spectrum. The tachyon net seemed only to need ships to maintain the beams; pulses wouldn't need such a ship to ship system and since only the visible light spectrum is distorted, technically a UV sensitive bird could be trained as a detection system once one has built a tiny little birdie spacesuit.
As an alternative to cloak, why not have a cloak detection system such as this?
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Elron
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Post by Elron on Jan 24, 2007 21:28:04 GMT
They may not have explicitly said that frequencies outside the visible range are distorted, but they haven't said that they're not either. Given the extensive and exhaustive sensor packages included on Federation starships, I find it inconceivable that one could find a cloak simply by using x-rays or UV. Given the enormous amount of UV radiation from stars, not to mention the cosmic microwave background, you'd think it would be even easier to detect a cloaked ship using these frequencies than with visible light (what with space being so dark and all).
I'm not sure how a tachyon pulse would detect a cloak, either. You'd have to fire the pulse directly at the ship in order to see any effect, and even then I'm not sure what could be detected.
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cptjeff
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Post by cptjeff on Jan 25, 2007 6:37:39 GMT
I think it's been noted during the Klingon civil war that the cloak will let anything through in terms or radiation, ect except for tachyons, which is how they set up that web. I'm not sure how it works, but I would presume like a intruder laser- break the beam and an alarm goes of, but it doesn't reflect back, and it takes a focused beam.
But that's hard to do. if cloaks weren't effective, nobody would ever use them.
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